Bill Ward Interview with Pat Cupito
3/24/99 3:00 p.m. EST
Copyright 1999 Pat Cupito

As you all know, I pursued this interview with Bill because I felt his life story wasn't only about being in Black Sabbath, but about personally being to hell and back with an amazing story to tell about the trip. I found Bill to be not only extremely interesting, but a very easy person to talk with as well. I have edited the interview down to a manageable level, but kept the pieces of information intact. I just eliminated some of the non-essential talk that occurred.
Patsy: OK…going way back, to very early in your life, at what point did you figure out you wanted to be a drummer, overall, and what kind of musical education do you have?

Bill: I don't have any musical education, so that is pretty simple to answer I guess. I have never made a conscious decision to be a drummer. I have always just looked at other drummers, since I was a youngster, say of 4 or 5 years old to the point when I was about 30 years old maybe, I would look at other drummers and feel I wanted to be like that, you know.

Patsy: So it just felt natural for you to get into that?

Bill: It felt totally natural for me to have rhythm and to play rhythm. Ever since I was tiny I can remember I have had an aptitude to play some type of rhythm, it just started when I was a toddler really.

Patsy: And the natural course of events kind of took over on you then?

Bill: Yeah, but I never really consciously made any decision like "I'm a drummer" so it's only been in recent years that I don't consider myself a drummer. I consider myself someone that reacts to music. Drummers keep time.

Patsy: I read somewhere that you play orchestration, not time, and not notes

Bill: That's true

Patsy: Not being a drummer, I assume that it is more of a natural way of doing it? That it is not a technical approach but more from the heart?

Bill: Yes, Um Hm
Patsy: Early On, with Black Sabbath, what was the inspiration behind the music that you guys did? It is just so dark and brooding, and I know that it was a rebellious time overall for people, transitioning from the sixties into the seventies; a lot of turmoil at that time, a lot of war. Was that just the natural result of the times that you were in, what was going on and the mood of the country at that time?

Bill: I think so. I was aware that I felt, when you are young, you have so much opinion and so much fight that youngsters have, just a marvelous thing where the energy level is so strong that one can actually believe they can make a difference or actually change the world or something. In the early or late teens I was aware that there was tremendous energy force when the four of us got together. When the 3 of us got together, it was fine, but when the four of us got together, there was an energy force which felt very comfortable and very normal and it was like having completion in parts that I wanted to be involved with. Then Tony or Geezer supplied that, and I could supply them in turn with what they needed, so there was this very tight union we had when we were teenagers, and what was going on were incredible changes. All of us would have to say I guess that we had an incredible education in the 60's, because there was so much revolution and upheaval and so much going on with music. Music was just incredibly high energy, so the education and the influences and the entire really rich musical period in history; I think that we were really just developing in that. There were some tough times in the late 60's and 70's, so naturally we would reflect and view those times at a time when a lot of other artists were, except that I think that Sabbath was unique in the sense that it was able to reflect through them in a way that Geezer and Ozzy lyrically could conceive. That is why some of the characters were born. Characters like Iron Man, you know there is a reason why we wrote Fairies Wear Boots.

Patsy: Actually, I read that story, I like that one. It was very interesting, especially since Ozzy himself came from a gang.

Bill: Yeah, Ozzy was a Skinhead when we first met him, or what we call a skinhead or regarded as White Power and all that. But just for the record, that does not reflect anybody's attitude here now.

Patsy: No, No, or course not

Bill: But yeah, there were all kinds of things to draw from, I guess like a diary or something, so that is kind of how it went down. Just reflections of how it was going down. I like the way it was presented, I like the way that we did Vietnam and how we did War Pigs.
Patsy: The period when you recorded Heaven and Hell when Ronnie came into the band: I know it is not the clearest period, because of, you know, the exhaustion, the drugs, the changes going on at that point, but can you just give me an idea of what it was like to work with Ronnie James Dio at the head, not so much in comparison to Ozzy, because I know it was a complete change, but on his own merit.

Bill: My own personal experience with Ron was it was really easy, very comfortable. You know I had none of the; apparently other things had happened after I left regarding the relationships with Ronnie, and that didn't happen with me

Patsy: Right, because you had left early enough that you weren't really involved in any of the other things

Bill: Right, so my relationship with Ronnie is like a good relationship, because me and Ron tided to each other and we haven't had a cross word with each other that I am aware of. I do like him as a person, and I think that he is an incredible singer. I didn't think that he was the right person for Black Sabbath, but I still praise him as an incredible singer. I listen to the records he has made by himself and I think that he has done some incredibly good work and the only thing that natural working structure, Ronnie is quite independent and able to put structures together.

Bill: To me, it seemed that Ronnie was very confident about what he needed to have to support his vocals, so he went out and asked for changes to be made, either from Geezer or from Tony or from myself to get his vocals supported. I know that you asked me to not make comparisons, but everything was different; everything suddenly became different, so my reactions to it after a short while were 'I don't know who this band is anymore'.

Patsy: It's not Black Sabbath anymore

Bill: No, I didn't think you could regard it as the original, the Sabbath that I understood.

Patsy: Do you ever talk to Ronnie now?

Bill: I haven't actually. I haven't spoken to him for years but I know friends of Ronnie's, so we are always passing messages through the grapevine and stuff. When I get a chance I read his interviews and stuff and think about him and wonder how he is, you know.

Patsy: In the past you have been somewhat critical of Heaven and Hell as an album I think because it was so different from anything else you had done in the past. Do you have any thoughts at all about it's place in history as a Sabbath album.

Bill: To me it meant the end of the phenomenon and the beginning of a whole other journey through each individual. Of course, I spun out first from the…..it meant the loss of Ozzy, the loss of how we used to write songs. The loss of Geezers lyrics…things like that. The loss of the melodies. You know there was a lot of areas where I would give input, a lot of areas where I would try to do melodies or suggest lyrics as well, and Ronnie didn't need that kind of help. That is not a put down of Ronnie, but what that made me feel like was that I was just playing drums and to be honest with you, just playing drums just isn't enough. It never has been. So when I think of Heaven and Hell, that's what it reminds me of, and I don't have a whole lot of high notes to think about with that. You know, I honestly don't remember making the album for the most part. Even when it is played today, I can't for the life of me, in some of the songs, remember playing it. So, I was totally blacked out, I didn't, you know, remember playing the album.
Patsy: Moving on to finally when you hit bottom, you were very depressed and addicted during the Heaven and Hell tour, and hit rock bottom after you left the band. I know that you were supposed to do some dates, and you cancelled out on them and finally just couldn't go back anymore, couldn't deal with it. And then you really hit rock bottom. With a friend's help, you started recovering your life back eventually. How did you get back on track during that period, and what made you realize that enough was enough and you had to change that you were so bad off?

Bill: What got me back on track was that there are recovery processes for people who are really ill from alcoholism or drug addiction or from anything else for that matter. So, I participated in recovery groups, and I still do to this day. That is what got me back on track. How I got there is a like any other drunk's story. In my particular case, you know, it's just the same thing as any other alcoholic goes through, which is depair, drink becomes a priority above everything else, and then finally the illness that the alcohol brings totally destroys the human body and the human mind, period.

Patsy: Could you bring yourself? Did you figure it out for yourself?

Bill: Well, what happened was that when I left from the band during Heaven and Hell, I had no idea about dealing with the losses, I didn't even know that I had loss at that time. What happened was that the fine line between still being able to control or not being able to control, the fine line of being able to still function as a drunk…I crossed the line, and I was unable to function any longer. Drink became the number one priority above everything, above my kids, my child at the time. It became the most important thing on earth. The booze was the number one thing for me. And so, when that happened, that was it, I was on my way to hell and it took about a year and a half to get to the real hell, and when you are in real hell, it takes awhile to figure out what the hell is going on. I take it all light-heartedly now, I mean, I went through that, I am glad I went through that. I'm really glad I have that experience, Pat, because everything else is cake now, to be honest with you.

Patsy: There you go, that's one way to look at it. Once you've been to hell, nothing else can bother you too much, right?

Bill: Pretty much. I went to the real place in a sense of utter despair, loneliness, three suicide attempts, in and out of hospitals all the time, detoxing in hospitals all the time, in and out of recovery clubs, in and out of just totally nuts, panhandling , living out on the streets, you know, just a whole hell mess.

Patsy: That is why it is amazing that you have come around so far, really…

Bill: You know, I didn't know this was going to happen. In 1983, I managed to do Born Again, and managed to do that completely sober, and as soon as the guys started taking about a tour, I started drinking again out of fear.

Patsy: Right, and I read that you said that was because of fear of touring, which leads right into my next question: You said that you couldn't play the same way as you did before; that from the alcohol, you just forgot.

Bill: I had, yeah. That is one of the things, that is one of the problems because when you learn when you are drunk, you don't really learn anything, so I had to relearn everything. I couldn't cross the road safely when I got sober. I couldn't go into a shop and buy something without flipping out. I couldn't eat properly, and forget things like sex. I had no idea how somebody would have sex. I had not idea about anything like that. Its like being zeroed out, and having to start with literally, to quote "What about Bob" but taking real baby steps. I was a bit like Bob….its exactly like Bob, just walking around in a fucking trance. In the end, when it was finally, finally all over which was around about Christmas time 1983, I tried my last suicide attempt, and I didn't have the courage to kill myself, so what happened was I had no other way out….I had no fucking way out there was nothing else that would work, booze had stopped working, it was killing me. The dope had stopped working , everything had stopped working so the only thing that I could do was drag my ass into a recovery program, and that was the last thing on Earth that I wanted to do. When I went back into recovery again the 2nd or 3rd of January, 1984 I had been in and out of recovery programs for nearly three years up until that point, so I had no hope of staying sober, or even staying alive, none whatsoever.

Patsy: So that was your only option left. You ran out of options, that was it.

Bill: Yeah, I ran out of all the options, and really there was no hope of me being able to stay sober cause I just couldn't stand the pain of me when I got sober, I can't take the pain killers man, staying sober and learning to live with yourself. You know, I can't fucking fix myself anymore. I was broke. That was it.

Patsy: Well, I'm glad you came out of it, as for one. I know there are millions of other people that are happy too.

Bill: Oh fuck yeah.

Patsy: I think that it is important for people to know that no matter how far you go down, because I think, well obviously I have never been quite that low, and I am thankful of that, but we have all had our moments, especially growing up in the 60's and 70's, we all have, especially Sabbath fans are notorious, I have to say, but no matter how far you go, you can always come up, which I feel is important to know. That is why I changed the focus of the story from you being with Sabbath to your recovery, because I thought that it was just incredible, that you were able to come up that far, to where you are today. Really something to be really proud of.
Patsy: Were you ever able to relearn the things that you had lost from that time?

Bill: There are a lot of things that I just can't remember. It's been nice actually, because what has happened is everything I am supposed to know I get given back. In other words, I never have to concern myself about whether I can remember it or do it, because when I am supposed to know it, I get the information.

Patsy: It is there

Bill: Yeah, so there is a lot of things that I just cant remember doing but once I start to do it, like learn how to drive a car and actually getting a legal driver's license, things like that, it's like 'Oh wow, I actually passed my test'. I got banned from driving when I was 18, getting in trouble with the police and what have you. It was great, I passed my drivers test, I think I was about 37 or 38, and I got my driver's license finally.

Patsy: But to you that must be a whole victory all over again.

Bill: Yeah, it's great, its fantastic, they even let me stay in America as well. I was regarded as "We don't want you in the country" basically you see. Now I can actually live as a free man in the United States. I hate the song by Phil Collins, the Immigrant song….no, not the Immigrant song (my apologies Mr. Bonham), the Illegal Alien or something like that. I fucking hate that song, because I've been there, I've been between countries, and I know what it is like to not have a country to live in. My heart goes out to anybody that is like a refugee or that kind of thing. I'm sure Phil Collins was using integrity. I don't mean to suddenly crash in on Phil Collins here, but whenever I would listen to that song, and I wasn't living in any country, you know, I was just "on hold"; it's a crap feeling and I lived like that for years. I lived like that sober for awhile, not knowing if I was going to be thrown out of America, knowing full well that the things I was discovering about myself as a sober person: There was no facility in Great Britain at that time, that would understand the complexities and the nature of some of the illnesses that I had. I am talking about other illnesses now, besides the alcoholism. I had already been in England sober, and there are some great and wonderful things in Great Britain but there are other areas where there was very little knowledge of some of the things I was learning about myself. I thought "Oh my god, if I go back to England, I'm going to die"
Patsy: Because you would have gone right back?

Bill: Well, I probably would have been able to stay sober, but I would have been in pain, a hell of a lot of other pain because of some of the other things that I was learning about myself. There was no facilitation in Great Britain for them. I mean literally there are places in this world where people literally die, because they cant get the help.

Patsy: And see, living in this country all my life, I tend to forget how fortunate we are to have the healthcare that we have. We have everything. We are so lucky.

Bill: You're the front line there. Pioneering into Health, pioneering into Mental Health and Emotional Health, because it gets pretty crazy. So for quite awhile I couldn't watch those Rock 'n Roll bands, the Heavy Metal bands that pissed around and pretended they were in lunatic asylums in a straight jacket. As soon as MTV started playing that shit, I just turned it off man, I just looked at it and thought "Fuckin' amateurs".

Patsy: Right, it's like not even funny, you know

Bill: No, its not funny not when you've been there, It's like the real thing, and you don't even know if you are going to get out, and then I watch these guys screwing around and I was like Whoa man.

Patsy: Like "If you only knew"

Bill: Yeah, …….

Patsy: Well, I am sorry that you had to go through it.
As you can see, although I was really nervous going into it, Bill turned out to be very easy to talk with and was very open and honest about his life. Speaking with him was both a thrill and a pleasure. This is probably a little more than half the interview, but finding a good place to cut it was not easy to do. I look forward to bringing you the conclusion of this interview next month, until then……Rock On!!

Patsy
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